Curse

billypowergamer · Sep 26, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by R!ghteous Ind!gnation

Its not that we cant cut it with h/h. I personally have completed all 3 campaigns with h/h on more than one character, but i would love to take my own builds into FoW/UW/DoA and vanquish the area... I cant take henchmen, my guild is constantly busy with something or another. The odds of getting a pug that can complete the entire FoW/UW is highly unlikely. The obvious solution would be to give me additional AI options for completion of the said areas. Anet has listened to its customer base before, and by petitioning i am hoping that they will do so again.

I like how the important detail behind why this won't happen keeps getting overlooked by you and everyone else that's pushing for this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaic

ANet has said over and over and over and over that the design of the game does NOT accomidate this. You can say ANet doesn't listen. They do, they've denied your request, and you are still asking. So, please, make Gaile and the other people who read this forum's, job that much easier and stop making these threads.

Please read the first sentence carefully, it's not that anet is saying no because they want to, but because of the way the game is designed and it is limited in what it can do. Signing a petetion will not suddenly make the game bend the rules of what it's capable of doing.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Sep 26, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk

A. /not signed
B. /not signed

I have valid reasons, I am going to say them and I welcome a discussion, but as said above, not flaming.

Firstly, Guild Wars is and remains an MMORPG. The "massive" aspect has, admittedly, regrettably been missing from the start, but it shouldn't totally become a solo game. Sure, I'm guily of slipping into a dungeon with an all NPC party, and complete my campaigns that way (10 chars makes party searching and the problems tied to that rather unatractive). But most of the time, I play with an IRL friend, with 3 heroes each. If you want to play an RPG alone, get Zelda or whatever, it's not what Guild Wars is about. Heck, it's Guild Wars! GUILD. Go with a guildy. Go with a friend. Don't lock yourself in a room to play a "social' game by yourself.

Secondly, less importantly, seven heroes would skew the balance of all high end areas (and loot). The player market has (due to the lack of bind-on-pickup/bind-on-equip) always been weak, as there is a constant input of items with virtually none being removed from the market (I mean, a few PvPers aside, who customizes weapons?). Take DoA. Would it still be nearly as fun if evreybody soloed mallyx with their heroes? No, this is definately not signed. Not signed on behalf of the serious pvE players and not signed on behalf of the entire community, which is still a community and not a collection of individuals.

You make some valid arguments but please allow me to retort. In your post you quintessentially make two separate arguments.

1. GW = MMORPG - Player based, should interact with other people.

2. 7 heros ruins the economy - your saying here that more people can beat Mallyx (just as an example) there will be more people with the high end items.

Moving on to my rebuttal:

With regards to your first arguement. Guild wars in an MMORPG, playing with other people can be great fun and is exactly why I am in a guild, but that does not by any means negate my previous arguments. While I am happy that you have a friend that can get on at the same time as you and is always (apparently always) intersted in doing exactly what you need to do, it does not by any means settle my issue. When I get on at around 11 oclock every night the majority of my guild is already signed off or planning on signing off too soon to accomplish any significant goals. So I am left to H/H my way through most of the goals that I want to accomplish or grab a pug that has a very low success rate of accomplishing the goals of many of the higher end areas. So while I'm happy that 3 heros and another human with 3 heros works for you, you do not speak for the entirety of the player base. Also i'm sure that there are times that your friend is not online and you would like to accomplish something that cannot be attained with the H/H system. So even if it doesnt hurt you most of the time it could still help you some of the time.

Moving on to your second arguement. While you do make a point that more people will be able to achieve goals of completing all quests in high end areas is this a bad thing? So more people can do this... isnt that good that more players can successfully play more of the game? I would have to say so. Additionally this should have no profound effect on the economy of the game as heros take the loot too. There would be no massive influx of high end items and thus no economical changes.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Sep 26, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by billypowergamer

I like how the important detail behind why this won't happen keeps getting overlooked by you and everyone else that's pushing for this

Please read the first sentence carefully, it's not that anet is saying no because they want to, but because of the way the game is designed and it is limited in what it can do. Signing a petetion will not suddenly make the game bend the rules of what it's capable of doing.

Again you cannot H/H FoW,UW, DoA because hench aren't allowed there.... you can H/H most of the game but why not allow the 8 heros where henchmen cannot?

The reasons that Anet gives are bogus, they primarily state the user interface would potentially become too cluttered.... you can choose to ignore/minimize the hero userface as it is now so this is marginal at best. And what would another possible reason why it wouldnt be possible? 8 customized skillbars?... if you play in a pug or guilded group it is just that 8 customized skillbars.

Deadlyjunk · Sep 26, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Should they not bother to play apart from the weekend?

I'm a high school student, I have daily classes, homework etc. I can only play for longer periods during the weekend too. I've never had any problem doing any quest/mission/dungeon yet, with about an hour per day of time to kill on Guild Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Oh and also before I forget, GW is advertised as a game you can play with a team or solo. So playing with a pug isnt the "right" way. If they had advertised from the start that playing solo was going to be a weaker option they would have sold a lot less to the casual market.

I'm sorry but I strongly disagree here. Why should players who are more dedicated, who sacrifice more time for the game, and who do play in a team have nothing to show for it? Some areas should remain inacessible for players who aren't willing to get one friend and his heroes. That's ALL IT TAKES these days. One person. A real-life friend maybe?

Look at WoW. It has solo players who have a great time, but if you want the high end stuff, you need a dedicated raid guild. In the old days it was 40-people + (!!), now it's generally 25. Honestly, in an MMORPG I find it almost offensive you complain about having to play with one other player to get the very best things in the game.

Isileth · Sep 26, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by billypowergamer

Please read the first sentence carefully, it's not that anet is saying no because they want to, but because of the way the game is designed and it is limited in what it can do. Signing a petetion will not suddenly make the game bend the rules of what it's capable of doing.

Its not a case of they cant do it. The fact they have the heroes in shows they can do it. What they did say was it isnt in their design vision. Which for the most part translates into. Its work which we arent getting paid for so no.

However when enough people ask for it, they can either risk losing reputation with the casual player (who are a huge portion of the playerbase) or they can make a change.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Sep 26, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

@ Deadly junk: If your unsatisfied with the responses from Isileth please see my own responses to your previous arguments as they will add further insight to the issue at hand.

Deadlyjunk · Sep 26, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by R!ghteous Ind!gnation

Again you cannot H/H FoW,UW, DoA because hench aren't allowed there.... you can H/H most of the game but why not allow the 8 heros where henchmen cannot?

Because there's no incentive for any group activity left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R!ghteous Ind!gnation

So more people can do this... isnt that good that more players can successfully play more of the game?

No.

No.

No.

Want more, play more. I'm not for handing tormented shields to every straight-out-of-ascalon noob and his band of ragtag heroes. A large part of the fun of the game for me is having something hard to get and knowing you took the time and effort to get it. Guild Wars is ruining that more and more already, what with dwarven axes being craftable now etc, but at least leave us one or two things to feel good about.
K. Thx.

Isileth · Sep 26, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk

I'm a high school student, I have daily classes, homework etc. I can only play for longer periods during the weekend too. I've never had any problem doing any quest/mission/dungeon yet, with about an hour per day of time to kill on Guild Wars.

Are you actually comparing that to someone who is caring for a 6 month old? While also cleaning the house (possibly working from home).

An hour of free time for some people is a luxury.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk

I'm sorry but I strongly disagree here. Why should players who are more dedicated, who sacrifice more time for the game, and who do play in a team have nothing to show for it? Some areas should remain inacessible for players who aren't willing to get one friend and his heroes. That's ALL IT TAKES these days. One person. A real-life friend maybe?

Look at WoW. It has solo players who have a great time, but if you want the high end stuff, you need a dedicated raid guild. In the old days it was 40-people + (!!), now it's generally 25. Honestly, in an MMORPG I find it almost offensive you complain about having to play with one other player to get the very best things in the game.

Because GW was advertised as a game where skill>time.
Just because someone can play more they should be rewarded more? They should be allowed access to areas where others cant? GW would have sold a lot less copies if this is the way the game was set out.

And as I said before. Even with 1 friend. If you have to go afk multiple times it doesnt help at all. There is still real people being put out because you cant dedicate time to the game.

This isnt WoW, it was always advertised as a game a player could go solo and do just the same as someone who went in a team. Again they wouldnt have sold as many copies had this not been the case.

We also arent complaining about playing with other people. We are saying the option to go solo should be balanced with it. After all it was advertised that it would be. So why should pugging suddenly be the right way to do it?

the_jos · Sep 26, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Most players are casual. They come home from work/education whatever, get to play for maybe 30 mins before they need to start preparing food, then they have to do some cleaning, put the kids to bed, maybe finish off some work or whatever. And all of a sudden they need to sleep.

Well.... ain't life a bitch?
Could say the same thing about every social activity that involves people that don't live in my house.
Or even watching TV or reading a book.
When I do X, I can't do Y. If I want to do more Y, I have to do less X.

Quote:

Should they not bother to play apart from the weekend?

They should accept that they have Z time that they have to devide by activities X and Y. Since there are 24 hours in a day, Z will have a max.
Time devoted to X and Y can be shifted, while that may not be desirable.

If Y is playing and X is all other activities including sleep, heroes are not going to get you more time in Y. You have to take that from X.
Playing 30 minutes will not help you vanquishing. Even with a decent human team many areas take a lot longer than an hour to finish.
DoA, Deep, Urgoz's are also not 30 minute play areas.
You need to take time from your other activities and dedicate that to playing.
If you can't do that, heroes are not going to help.

Heroes only help speeding things up, but not that much.
If they would speed up things a lot, I'd say the 'overpowered' argument is valid.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Sep 26, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Heroes only help speeding things up, but not that much.
If they would speed up things a lot, I'd say the 'overpowered' argument is valid.

It speeds things up over standard h/h and is still significantly slower than a good guild group. Im not certain why exactly your so adamantly opposed to allowing players to have another tool in their arsenal? if you dont want to use additional heros then dont... many players are better than the heros anyway, but heros can allow for a short period of afk without griping and should i have to leave i dont feel as though i have let the group down.

Deadlyjunk · Sep 26, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Are you actually comparing that to someone who is caring for a 6 month old? While also cleaning the house (possibly working from home).

An hour of free time for some people is a luxury.

Boo-friggedy-hoo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Because GW was advertised as a game where skill>time.
Just because someone can play more they should be rewarded more? They should be allowed access to areas where others cant?

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

This isnt WoW, it was always advertised as a game a player could go solo and do just the same as someone who went in a team. Again they wouldnt have sold as many copies had this not been the case.

We also arent complaining about playing with other people. We are saying the option to go solo should be balanced with it. After all it was advertised that it would be. So why should pugging suddenly be the right way to do it?[/QUOTE]
A) Shut up about pugging, I have never advocated it at all. Get a guild, get a friend.
b) About Guild wars would've sold less if it was that way?
WoW=7 mill player base, GW=2.5 mill.
Honestly, stupid complaining! You can get everything, do everything except Doa, FoW and UW. You can get perfect armor and weps etc. Jezus, I know it's not WoW but just by comparison, you can't even get a near-max damage weapon on WoW unless you raid 5 nights/week and I never hear their player base complain. If you invest more time, you should get more reward, it makes perfect sense.

Loviatar · Sep 26, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Its not a case of they cant do it. The fact they have the heroes in shows they can do it. What they did say was it isnt in their design vision. Which for the most part translates into. Its work which we arent getting paid for so no.

However when enough people ask for it, they can either risk losing reputation with the casual player (who are a huge portion of the playerbase) or they can make a change.

playerbase casual yes

fansite base casual no way

this site has turned for the most part from casual into a hardcore farmer/trader/item site

the number of true casual players here is miniscule.

the yelling for this is *7 heros i can hit every elite area* and farm it without a quitter.

or

i can do the high non elite areas faster and more efficiently with myself and a party of 4/5 heroes instead of needing the full 7 henchies which increases my loot on exemptions

Isileth · Sep 26, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Well.... ain't life a bitch?
Could say the same thing about every social activity that involves people that don't live in my house.
Or even watching TV or reading a book.
When I do X, I can't do Y. If I want to do more Y, I have to do less X.

They should accept that they have Z time that they have to devide by activities X and Y. Since there are 24 hours in a day, Z will have a max.
Time devoted to X and Y can be shifted, while that may not be desirable.

If Y is playing and X is all other activities including sleep, heroes are not going to get you more time in Y. You have to take that from X.
Playing 30 minutes will not help you vanquishing. Even with a decent human team many areas take a lot longer than an hour to finish.
DoA, Deep, Urgoz's are also not 30 minute play areas.
You need to take time from your other activities and dedicate that to playing.
If you can't do that, heroes are not going to help.

Heroes only help speeding things up, but not that much.
If they would speed up things a lot, I'd say the 'overpowered' argument is valid.

No it wouldnt speed anything up (apart from the forming of parties) once your out there fighting they are not better than real players.

And the point of being able to do these high end areas is I get 30 mins in. Kid wakes up. I go off. When I come back....my team is all still there! No one has left or gone afk themselves and I can go ahead and carry on playing.

And yes we have to balance things in life. I can set aside X time for gaming.
But when a game requires you to have more then X time free it suddenly starts to not get purchased by casual players. Now while GW1 is all done and no more profits will really be made (Not as if any fresh game was launched anyways) suddenly making changes looks bad from a financial point of view.
What they need to remember is a lot of people who buy GW2 will come from GW1. Now should casual players not be able to actually play all of the game they might look at GW2 and think...hmm I wont actually be getting my moneys worth. And they will go and buy a different game.

The reason I purchased GW was that it would allow me as a casual player to actually play in the time I had available. However im still at a disadvantage to someone who has more time. So obviousely at the moment I have my eye open for any new games that claim to be open to casual players.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Sep 26, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk

Boo-friggedy-hoo.

I do find it interesting that you originally didnt post because you didnt want people to flame at you then you respond to a reasonable argument with something like this... regardless your still not responding to my rebuttals to your previous arguments.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Sep 26, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk

Because there's no incentive for any group activity left.

No.

No.

No.

Want more, play more. I'm not for handing tormented shields to every straight-out-of-ascalon noob and his band of ragtag heroes. A large part of the fun of the game for me is having something hard to get and knowing you took the time and effort to get it. Guild Wars is ruining that more and more already, what with dwarven axes being craftable now etc, but at least leave us one or two things to feel good about.
K. Thx.

Cute arguement. I have puged and h/h all 5 of my tormented items and all 4 sets of my FoW armor as well as countless 15k sets. I dont NEED to have the 7 heros, but it would be much more enjoyable for me if i had the OPTION of having 7 heros in a party.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Sep 26, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk

Honestly, stupid complaining! You can get everything, do everything except Doa, FoW and UW. You can get perfect armor and weps etc. Jezus, I know it's not WoW but just by comparison, you can't even get a near-max damage weapon on WoW unless you raid 5 nights/week and I never hear their player base complain. If you invest more time, you should get more reward, it makes perfect sense.

This isnt a thread intended to complain about lack of time... I have 4.5k+ hours spent in GW so far... I play pleanty, but the game would be more ENJOYABLE if i could have 7 heros in many areas.

bhavv · Sep 26, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

/signed on A

/signed on B

Throw rocks at people that disagree.

8 elly team, 8 elly team, 8 elly team, EVERYWHERE I GO, 8 elly team, 8 elly team, plz plz plz plz plz plz plz......

Im just gonna cry more and more cos I'll never get my perfect game.

As far as farming goes, using 7 heroes isnt going to make me more money then solo farming Ecto's and Rubies and torment gems.

Isileth · Sep 26, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Im not going to keep replying to everyone now as im getting tired

Dont normally post this much and its getting late.

As for people saying it would help farming and get extra loot in high end areas etc.

I have never farmed once. Why? I dont have enough time (Not to mention doing the same thing over and over doesnt appeal to me).

I dont care about skins or high end weapons. My main char of over 1 year doesnt even have a max bow. I play because im here to have fun.

I also agree most people on this forum wont be casual. But that doesnt mean all are. And when from a group that mostly isnt casual you get a lot supporting something like this imagine what it would be like if we had all the casual players on here as well!

Now for the lucky one to get quoted and replied to be personally (Prepare to feel special)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk

Boo-friggedy-hoo.

How does that help anyone? Please dont ruin this thread which has otherwise been a good discussion of the pros and cons of this.

Also as for your comment that yes time>skill rather than skill>time.
That wasnt what GW was advertised as. You would have them turn around now and screw over a big portion of the playerbase? How thoughful of you.

BlackSephir · Sep 26, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Signet Of Hell

I disagree on all fronts. Guild Wars is meant to be an MMORPG, even though there are many arguments against that fact, and as one it should not be completely reliable on NPCs. Why do you think Henchmen are stupid? So people will want to play with other people, and whether you think so or not, playing with real people/friends is better company then a bunch of animated players that are built to spam their skills.

We need to make one thing clear but I'll have to ask one question first.

Who the hell are you? No, seriously. Who the hell are YOU to tell me how I AM supposed to play GW? That's one thing. Second thing- GW isn't ordinary MMO, it's CORPG. Third thing- GW was advertised to allow to play with friends OR AI controlled players (then henchmen, now also heroes). 4th thing- no, you aren't better than my Tahlkora. See, she doesn't whine, she runs the build I want her to run, she doesn't bitch about me being an assassin.
My heroes > henchmen > you.

And if you want to respond, remember about the most important question

Quote:

Who the hell are YOU to tell me how I AM supposed to play GW?

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Sep 26, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

We need to make one thing clear but I'll have to ask one question first.

Who the hell are you? No, seriously. Who the hell are YOU to tell me how I AM supposed to play GW? That's one thing. Second thing- GW isn't ordinary MMO, it's CORPG. Third thing- GW was advertised to allow to play with friends OR AI controlled players (then henchmen, now also heroes). 4th thing- no, you aren't better than my Tahlkora. See, she doesn't whine, she runs the build I want her to run, she doesn't bitch about me being an assassin.
My heroes > henchmen > you.

And if you want to respond, remember about the most important question

WOW you just pwnt the thread....

grats